Wow, that goes back a long time...
Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
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On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 6:22 PM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:
One of my cousins in Hungary has been doing his own research. I assume they know each other through genealogy, but I haven't asked. Gabor Farkas goes by Gavriel Zeevi in Israel. I found his tree on MyHeritage. His tree includes information I'll need to investigate. His earliest Kuttner relative is Simon Kuttner, married to Leni Levier. Levier might be incorrect and instead would be Löwinger. That would match an ancestor of mine Simon Kuttner (b1792) - Magdalena Löwinger (b1800). Just assumptions for now.On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 3:48 AM RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:Very cool. How did you find this? 3rd cousin isn't so distant, with other branches of my family, I'm in touch with my 3rd cousins. In fact, a third cousin from Jerusalem came over here a few days ago to visit.Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
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On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 10:58 AM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:Hi Reuven,Just a small update for you. I had mentioned previously that there was a possible twin that I hadn't added to your tree yet. Turns out she is a Kuttner. A cousin sent me an article of somebody he knows and that's the guy's great grandmother.Gabor is your 3rd cousin 1x removed. Fairly distant, but my cousin says he lives in Israel, so fairly close. My cousin thinks Gabor will be willing to submit a DNA test, if he hasn't already. I'm still hoping somebody in your family submits one as well, because Gabor has another Kuttner branch in his tree which will probably skew the math in trying to discover the common relative, if any.-RaymondOn Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 12:10 PM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 5:46 AM RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:Thank you for replying to my email. I will have to go through the attachments that you sent me more closely, but I'll try to respond to your points one-by-one. My responses are marked with a >>>.In that era, my Kuttner relatives mostly went by Kutna. I believe his title is in the birth records of his grandchildren, so it'll be a while to locate.>>> That's very interesting. Do we know anything about the origins of the surname? Does it have anything to do with this town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutno ? There was a famous rabbi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Joshua_Trunk who is also knwon as Rabbi Israel Kuttner (unrelated to our trees) because he came from that town Kutno, so maybe that's the etymon of this surname also?*** There's no family history that explains the shift in spelling. The Kutna rabbis were primarily orthodox. Kutna is the Yiddish version of Kuttner. Kuttner and Kutna are topographic surnames for Kutno, Poland. Rabbi Josef Kutna's biography states he's originally from Kutno and most likely his father Juda. There are two members in your tree that the record keepers wrote the surname as Kutna.If you're not aware, FamilySearch is the Mormon Church's free access website to their vast family records collection and global tree similar to Geni.>>> I wasn't aware, but now I am. Thanks for telling me about this. I've been on Geni.com for a very long time. It'll be hard to switch. But this site looks like it has more information than Geni. The only thing is that I'm a bit uncomfortable with the whole retroactive baptisim thing for dead people. What do you make of it?***A large majority of the records the major genealogy websites have are from FamilySearch, including JewishGen.All the members of your family I've located so far have source records attached to them.>>> Amazing. You sent me some of them, if you have more, I'd love to get copies of those records.***That would be about a hundred pages of records. It would be easier to join and click on the source images. I sent the ones that I felt were the most important to your research.>>> True. You mentioned Sandor/Alexander, it's possible that Alexander was his Hebrew name, but not neccessarily does it have to have been.***Typically in Jewish records the record keeper chose the name to record. In Hungary, laws were passed demanding Germanic surnames and Hungarian language records. The record keepers would typically in small print add the Hebrew name near the Germanic name. That's not the case with your family records.The records show Josef was born in Csicsó, Komárom, Hungary [Číčov, Komárno, Slovakia], married both times in Boldog-Asszony, Moson, Hungary [Frauenkirchen, Austria]. Mayer born in Szent-Péter, Moson, Hungary to Josef's second wife Rezi.>>> Very interesting. I didn't know that Josef was married twice. I was only aware of his second wife who you call Rezi, but in my sources her name is given as Lotte (in Hungarian?) and Shaindel (in Yiddish).***His first wife passed away in 1888. He married Rezi Lotti Wolf a year later. Rezi is typically short for Terez/Theresia and Lotti typically short for Sarolta/Charlotte.Israel/Izrael Kutna/Kutner had no "R." shorthand by his name in records in 1852. In 1854 he gained the shorthand "R." Then in 1856 he had Rabi next to his name. I believe he served as a rabbi of Bonyhad until his death in 1872. I believe he was titled chief rabbi in one of his descendents' records, but that'll take days to find.>>> As I said before, this is very interesting, especially because I edited a Hebrew translation of Mr. Blau's book on the history of Bonyhad, and as far as I remember there was no chief rabbi name Kuttner. But either way, how does this Israel Kuttner fit with my Kuttner family?*** I've read Mr. Blau's book regarding Bonyhad a few times. It's one of my inspirations to research my Jewish Kuttner family. Israel Kutna isn't really important in this case, besides being a Kuttner in Bonyhad. Your ancestor Sandor Kuttner living in Komarom where my family originated in Hungary is important. There are known gaps in my tree that I'm trying to research and Sandor fits into several of those gaps. My ancestor Lipot/Leopold is known to have 3-4 sons, but I only know of one.I appreciate your skepticism and I'm more than happy to explain anything you have doubts about. And if any of your Kuttner relatives are willing to do a DNA test with Ancestry, I'd be more than happy to pay for it. It wouldn't prove precisely where the trees attach, if even, but will give an approximation.>>> I personally wouldn't do it. But when I get around to it, I can send an email to a bunch of my 1st and 2nd cousins and ask if any of them would be interested in doing a DNA a test to help figure this out. But I doubt they would want to. I'm the most interested in genealogy from the whole family, so they're probably less inclined.***Understandable. It would help with my research and attempt to unify the Kuttner trees, but ultimately they're your ancestors. I would still research the tree along with the many other Kuttner trees in the hopes of a new clue for my tree.I'll need to do more research, but I believe the senior Miksa is:>>> I'm a bit confused as to what you're referring to. What do you mean by senior Miksa? Unfortunately, Leslie Barany himself died in 2021, so he doesn't have proof of anything. But whatever he said in that email was coming straight from his mother.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GGS9-1NY
His grandparents have the same names as the grandparents for your Miksa and his father Gaspar would fit neatly as a son. That would make both Miksas cousins as your family believes. Does Leslie Barany have proof of them being cousins? I'd like to merge the trees if he does.*** You had asked:6. Also, I found in the Yizkor Book for the town of Papa that it mentions a list of teachers that had something to do with the town of Papa, and in the list it says "MIKSA KUTTNER Senior was the principal and the teacher of Tab, Somogy County MIKSA KUTTNER Junior worked at the orthodox school of Bonyhád" (see here for the exact page). This seems to imply that Miksa Kuttner's father was also named Miksa Kuttner and was a teacher in the town of Tab. Is this indeed my great-great-grandfather?The Miksa I referenced was a teacher in Tab. Leslie stated in response to your question that the Miksas are actually first cousins. Surprisingly they probably are due to the grandparents names matching and the locations are close to each other. Assuming they're related, that would give the surname Mako/Max to your Miksa's grandmother Sali.Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 3:07 AM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:The link you provided regarding Kuttners was informative, thanks. I'm sure your questions from 2012 have been settled, but I do have more information.1 & 2) Miksa Kuttner and Aranka Weisz are not the same couple as Miksa Kuttner and Debora Weisz. That Miksa is a descendant of a separate Izrael Kuttner and Berta Goldschein. I suspect, and others on Geni believe, that Izrael is Moses Moritz Kuttner and Berta is Betti Mondschein of another Kuttner tree. We also believe they're tied into the Rabbi Josef Kutna tree, but I'm currently still searching for living descendants. You can find both here:3) The marriage certificate for Miksa and Debora has her mother's name as Regina Steiner. There's also a witness David Steiner present, which suggests a brother of Regina. Do you believe they may have changed their family name?6) I'll need to do more research, but I believe the senior Miksa is:His grandparents have the same names as the grandparents for your Miksa and his father Gaspar would fit neatly as a son. That would make both Miksas cousins as your family believes. Does Leslie Barany have proof of them being cousins? I'd like to merge the trees if he does.-RaymondOn Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 2:40 PM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:I noticed on Mayer's birth record that a Kuttner from Kismarton [Eisenstadt, Austria] assisted with his circumcision. Doesn't mean they're related, but that could really only be Salamon Kutna, Rabbi of Kismarton, son of Aron Kutna, Rabbi of Tata, who is another son of Rabbi Josef Kutna, my 4th great grandfather.Israel/Izrael Kutna/Kutner had no "R." shorthand by his name in records in 1852. In 1854 he gained the shorthand "R." Then in 1856 he had Rabi next to his name. I believe he served as a rabbi of Bonyhad until his death in 1872. I believe he was titled chief rabbi in one of his descendents' records, but that'll take days to find.There is probably a twin of Elias Kutner in your tree that I haven't added, because I can't verify if the name is Kutner, but it's written in the record like she's a twin on line 60. Also, Sali Schenel, wife of Sandor/Alexander doesn't have a maiden name. Schenel is another first name she used in the records.I appreciate your skepticism and I'm more than happy to explain anything you have doubts about. And if any of your Kuttner relatives are willing to do a DNA test with Ancestry, I'd be more than happy to pay for it. It wouldn't prove precisely where the trees attach, if even, but will give an approximation.-RaymondOn Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 12:29 PM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:Thanks for responding! I will have to get back to you on Israel's title. In that era, my Kuttner relatives mostly went by Kutna. I believe his title is in the birth records of his grandchildren, so it'll be a while to locate.If you're not aware, FamilySearch is the Mormon Church's free access website to their vast family records collection and global tree similar to Geni. All the members of your family I've located so far have source records attached to them. The only Hebrew I see for Sandor/Alexander is the birth dates for his children. I can't read Hebrew and the records I find in that era are typically cursive, so not easily translated with translating tools. I don't believe any of the records from that area and time were completely in Hebrew.The records show Josef was born in Csicsó, Komárom, Hungary [Číčov, Komárno, Slovakia], married both times in Boldog-Asszony, Moson, Hungary [Frauenkirchen, Austria]. Mayer born in Szent-Péter, Moson, Hungary to Josef's second wife Rezi.My tree on FamilySearch if interested:-RaymondOn Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 4:54 AM RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:I don't know anybody who has ever done DNA testing for genealogy. All of my information comes from testimonies of people or written documents. How did you get the names of Joseph Kuttner's parents? Where did you find that information? Do you know what Sandor and Sali's Hebrew names were? Where did they live?Did you see this post on my blog: https://kleinfamilygenealogy.blogspot.com/2012/08/fwd-questions-historical-information.html That's likely the most important one for your purposes.I don't think I've ever heard of an Israel Kuttner who was a rabbi in Bonyhad. And I recently edited a book on the history of the Jewish community in Bonyhad, so somethings sounds a bit off. What's your source for that person?Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 7:12 AM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:Hi Reuven,While updating a Kuttner family tree I've been researching I discovered a blog of yours stating your grandmother is Rose Kuttner of Bonyhad. I also located your research on Geni, confirming it's the same tree. My research goes one generation higher from Josef Kuttner (b.1851) to Sandor Kutner (b.1819) and Sali Schenel (b.1818). If curious, you can find the majority of the sources and tree information here:I suspect your 3rd great grandfather Sandor is the son of my 4th great grandfather Josef (b.1744) Rabbi of Tata or his son Israel (b.1795) Rabbi of Bonyhad. I haven't yet located records on who Sandor's parents might be, so I'm looking for descendants of his that might have DNA on any of the genealogy sites. Do you or any of your cousins of Kuttner heritage have DNA online?Thanks,Raymond
