Thursday, August 09, 2012

Fwd: QUESTIONS: historical information about Kuttner family


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Leslie Barany <lesbarany@aol.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS: historical information about Kuttner family
To: "Edith.gruen" <edith.gruen@gmail.com>
Cc: Klein Reuven Chaim <yeshivish@gmail.com>, BLAU LESLIE <lacisari11@verizon.net>


My mother just called.
She read over my purple corrections. Apparently, I still have errors in there.
I told her we can go over it and make more corrections next time I'm in Brooklyn.

Les



In the meanwhile, Edith, perhaps you can get the input from your Mom and Dad.


On Aug 7, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Edith.gruen wrote:

Wow! Thank G-d for Gyongyi and her memory and  Les and Reuven too

My mother Szori  gave me some of this info two days ago- I will check my notes- but not in this detail-
and I haven't had the opportunity to respond to you- but I will share this info w my Mom and Dad 


 Edith

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:56 PM, Leslie Barany <lesbarany@aol.com> wrote:

Reuven,

I had my mother read over what I wrote to you yesterday. Good thing I did because I got somethings wrong.
I'll insert in PURPLE below. I will also still have to review with her your follow-up questions from yesterday. 

I am curious, how do you organize all this information and how will it be accessible to us?

Les



Begin forwarded message:

From: Leslie Barany <lesbarany@aol.com>
Date: August 6, 2012 3:37:08 AM EDT
To: Klein Reuven Chaim <yeshivish@gmail.com>
Cc: BLAU LESLIE <lacisari11@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS: historical information about Kuttner family

Dear Reuven,

Got some information for you.
It's raw data from my mother. 

Les


QUESTIONS FROM REUVEN

On Aug 5, 2012, at 3:16 AM, RCK wrote:

As many of you know, one of my hobbies is genealogical research. Recently I have been trying to look into the KUTTNER side of my family, I found some interesting things and perhaps you can be of help if you have some information to contribute to my research.

1. First of all, in the JewishGen Yizkor Book Necrology Hungarian Database I found mention of the marriage of Miksa and Aranka WEISZ. Is this our grandfather?

NO. Miksa was not Weiss, not unless he took his wife's family name,
which we know he didn't. 

2. I know that Mayer is Miksa, but does it make sense to say that Deborah WEISZ is Aranka WEISZ?

NO, that does not follow in the tradition of Talmudic logic. 

3. From Sori neni's story I know that Devorah Kuttner was originally from Ujvidek
, do we have any other information about the WEISZ family from that side?

YES. My mother was very helpful. 
Weiss Mor (Moishe) was the father of Deborah Kuttner
Galandauer Regina (Rivka) was his wife.

Sori neni was a little mistaken. They were from Verbasz.
Actually, Moishe was a hazan, originally from a town near Bonyhad
(called Mórágy [Weiss Mor was born in Mórágy. Once he and Regina Galandauer were married, they moved to Verbasz] went to Verbasz where he married
Regina Galandauer. They had four children, Mariska, Mitzi, Deborah and Misi.
Misi married Kate and left Verbasz for Israel. Mariska married and moved to Pittsburgh in the USA. Not sure about Mitzi, you will have to follow up on that. 

It was only after Regina's husband, Moishe, passed away that she (I assume with her daughters) moved to Ujvidek. Verbasz was somewhere on the border with Yugoslavia. 
The border kept shifting and sometimes it was one country or the other. She said this is wrong. As she explained it, Hungary lost it in WWI and it became Yugoslavia. Then after Hitler it became Hungary again. I suggest both of us hitting the history books on this to understand it better.

4. Are there any relatives from that side of the family that might have more information?

Kate & Misi bacsi in Israel are gone. They had a daughter, Sonja, and a son, Freddy. Agi knows them, if you want to pursue that line of inquiry. Yossi has also met them when he was a child. I think they lived in Beit Zait just outside Jerusalem. They have kids and grand kids of their own. 

5. Also does anyone know what were the (Hebrew and Secular) names of the parents and grandparents of
Mayer and Devorah Kuttner?

This next answer is one is where I had it most confused.

I gave you Devorah Kuttner's parents' name above.
Miksa (Mayer) Kuttner's parents were Joseph and Lotte.
Mayer also had a brother, Sandor. His wife's name was Ilus.
Sandor and Ilus had two daughters, but parents and children all perished.

They had a son, Shaya, who didn't 'come back', and a daugher, Vali. 
Vali married Yossi Bilitzer and they live in Afula, Israel. 
Mayer and Sandor had a sister named Vali. Vali married Bilitzer Mor,
who was a cantor and a shochet. They lived in Eger. They had two sons,
Shaya and Jossi. Shaya perished in the Holocaust, Jossi lives in Afula, Israel.

My feeling is Jossi Bilitzer in Afula might be a good person to visit and may have 
more information for you. Agi knows them from a long time ago and could make 
the introduction. Also to Sonia and Freddy in Bet Zait. They've all met Yossi and your father, too.
On second thought, who am I kidding. She has no time for such things. Maybe Yossi?
Probably not. He is as practical in his priorities as is my sister.

No information is available on Miksa Mayer's grandparents. 
That's expecting too much, but I am sure you will find it.

6. Also, I found in the Yizkor Book for the town of Papa that it mentions a list of teachers that had something to do with the town of Papa, and in the list it says "MIKSA KUTTNER Senior was the principal and the teacher of Tab, Somogy County MIKSA KUTTNER Junior worked at the orthodox school of Bonyhád" (see here for the exact page). This seems to imply that Miksa Kuttner's father was also named Miksa Kuttner and was a teacher in the town of Tab. Is this indeed my great-great-grandfather?

Sorry, NO. The Yizkor Book of Papa is mistaken. They were not father and son but first cousins. They both went to teacher's school in Papa. 

7. Do we have any more information about him?

I gave it to you above. Your great-great-grandparents on the Kuttner side were
Joseph and Lotte Kuttner. 

8. Also, I haven't been able to figure out why this is mentioned in the Yizkor book for the town of Papa, what does this have to do with that town?

If you read the Papa Yizkor Book carefully, you will note that the city was famed for its school for teachers. They came from all over and upon graduation went to teaching positions all over.
 

9. Also, I found on the website for the US Holocaust Memorial Museum (click here) a picture of Jozsef Kuttner z"l donated to the Museum by Mr. and Mrs. Blau. In the description of the picture, it is mentioned that our common ancestor, Miksa (Mayer) Kuttner was born in Mosonszenpeter, Hungary. To the best of my recollection, this fact is not mentioned in Mr. Blau's, so I would like to first verify if this is true.

My mother say that is correct.

10. I cannot find anymore information about this town, perhaps it was known under a different name or the
name or spelling of the town is inaccurate?

The spelling is inacurate. The also misspelled my father's name. Americans are lousy spellers.

Try 'Moson Szent Peter' 

I also saw it referred to elsewhere as  'Mosonszentpéter' and as 'Moson-Szent-Péter '
 http://www.the-burgenland-bunch.org/V_Histories/Janossomorja.htm

My mother said the town was on the Austrian border and Lotte Kuttner spoke only German. Regina spoke only a little bit of Hungarian.

Maybe you know how to fix the information in the Leslie Blau entry of the US Holocaust Archive. And as I mentioned, it was a multiple entry, not just for Jozsef Kuttner, but also for his parents, brother and sister. I remember we sent all of their photos.

Thanks,
Reuven Chaim Klein

P.S. While checking UJVIDEK, I came upon this 1944 Serb on Hungarian horror story. 
Unless I'm missing something, it had nothing to do with Jews.

I mentioned this to my mother. She said the Jews were butchered in Ujvidek. 
Suprisingly (or not) there is no mention of it on this website. The Szerbs there were good to the Jews and tried to save them. The Slovaks were the bad guys. She said Mariska and Mitzi were in a group taken to the shores of the Danube and were ready to be shot, when a last minute order to stop saved their lives. They went to Bonyhad right afterwards their horrific experience. Follow-up is needed here to find out if this was at the beginning of the war or after it, and to find out what happened to Mitzi?

By the way, Mariska Neni (who lived in Pittsburgh) wrote out her autobiography in 
long hand. We have a copy of it. It might be worthwhile for you to read it. The early years
may hold more of the information you are looking for. 




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