I have no reason to assume they are the same person, so I think you're getting into dicey speculative territory. I think that if R. Tzvi Hirsch's brother was R. Michal {Yechiel Mechel} of Spinka it would have been mentioned somewhere and as far as I know, it's not mentioned anywhere.
By the way, regarding the document I sent that mentions the name Rabbi Avraham, it was published in a pamphlet on the yichus of the Weiss family of Bene Barak who are descendants of Rabbi Yosef Charif/Lichtig (who was another son of the R. Tzvi Hirsch that we are discussing). This particular factoid was sourced as coming from a manuscript about the family of Maharam Ash and I emailed Rabbi Weiss (Gaavad of the Neve Achiezer neighborhood in Bene Barak) and he verified that that is indeed exactly what it says in said manuscript.
Zei Gezunt & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods: Judaism in the Age of Idolatry (NEW!) & Lashon HaKodesh: History, Holiness, & Hebrew
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:40 AM <roys18@aol.com> wrote:
Noted. My mistake.Both examples are Avraham ben David. I will fix your line.
So if your Avraham ben David and mine are the same person (Not 100% proof) They could be cousins because I do have them from 2 different sons of the TaZ. I do have them both dying in 1713 BUT I cannot confirm that I accidently used this date on both instead of just from your Avrohom. I will try to recheck geni.com but it notoriously has errors.BUT if same, that means R. Tzvi Hirsch had a brother whose name was Rabbi Michal {Yechiel Mechel} of Spinka. However, I am making your correction to a son of David and I am keeping my Avraham as a different branch (cousin)fornow.
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com>
To: roys18@aol.com
Sent: Sat, May 2, 2020 3:46 pm
Subject: Re: [ravsig] The Rabbi of Wolbrom's Daughter
You misplaced where I added the extra generation. What I meant to tell you was that R. David STERN (who died in 1760) seems to have had a son named R. Avraham who was the father of R. Tzvi Hirsch (who was born in 1767 and thus couldn't be a son of R. David but makes more sense to be a grandson). In your more recent email, you added the R. Abraham between the TaZ's son R. Shmuel and R. David which is NOT what I was proposing. I told you the source of my addition of R. Avraham in the attachment in the email I sent on Friday. I just sent an email to the author of that tract to see if we can find more information. Please keep me posted.
Zei Gezunt & Kol Tuv,Reuven Chaim KleinBeitar Illit, Israel
On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 1:48 AM <roys18@aol.com> wrote:I noticed something interesting in my notes. RE: Your addition of Avraham HaLEvi Segal/Stern son of Rabbi SmuelA Rabbi David born about the same time but listed as a son of another son of the Ta"z. It is totally believeable to have 2 cousins named after the same person BUT it is also possible that a grandchild of the Ta"Z could be attributed to the same son on a different chart,
I gave youT`1 Ta"Z had son T2.6 Rabbi Shmuel (1645 - 1715) had son {you and I possibly should add Avraham HaLevi d.1713} had son T3.2 R. David (1690 - 1760) had son T4.2 Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Segal Stern 1767-1803 (Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Lichtig HaLevi Stern) (called Reb Hershele Litzas) ABD Ambrova near Trani.
Here I have a branch {SEE BELOW}T`1 Ta"Z had son T2.3 Rabbi Shlomo ca. 1610 (1619?) - ca. 1664, had son T3.1 Michal {Yechiel Mechel} Wiesel-Segal of Ostraha b. ca. 1640 ca. 1645 - d. ca. 1670 T4.1 Rabbi David HaLevi Kopel b. ca. 1670 ca. 1690 (married Chaya, 1st cousin, daughter of his aunt, Bluma) had son {MY NOTES SUGGEST I possibly should add Avraham HaLevi d.1713 here} had son T5.1 Rabbi Michal {Yechiel Mechel} of Spinka b. 1750 d.1830 who adopted the surname Weisel.
*****I am not sure where you got your Avraham from And I am not sure where I got my Avraham from.
Things are still confusing.Maybe 2 Avrahams - one was grandchild of the other. These 2 additions to the generations help out the time line.No proof BUT d.1713 works for the grandfather but not the grandson. NO?Yes? First tree has Avraham as father of R. David. 2nd tree has Avraham as a son.Also, maybe they are 2 fully separate lines as we have them and therefore only distantly related,No proof, just a thought.****** YES, there is 1 extra generation in the 2nd chart BUT 1st brother was born 1645 and this 2nd OLDER brother was born c.1610 - 35 years earlier...hence an extra generation.
Chapter 2a – Descendants of TaZ' son - T2.3 Rabbi Shlomo
T2.3 Rabbi Shlomo ca. 1610 (1619?) - ca. 1664 married daughter of Rabbi Zalman of Kolomea.
Died with his brother in 1664 in an anti-Jewish riot in Lvov. The local Jesuit students made it a habit of attacking Jews in the streets. One day the Jews fought back. A terrible pogrom erupted on May 24, 1664 and the two brothers were killed. Their epitaph read:Great G-d, ruler of all, avenge the blood of your servants, the bodies of the brothers, who were loved and cherished. One, who was like a lion, the great master, our teacher, Rabbi Mordechai and the second, the great and pious rabbi, our teacher, Rabbi Shlomo, the sons of the great Rabbi David … they studied Torah day and night. Therefore, avenge their blood…[1]T3.1 Michal {Yechiel Mechel} Wiesel-Segal of Ostraha b. ca. 1640 ca. 1645 - d. ca. 1670
T4.1 Rabbi David HaLevi Kopel[2] b. ca. 1670 ca. 1690 (married Chaya, 1st cousin, daughter of his aunt, Bluma[3] [4])
[1] Anaf Etz Avot[2] D. Aviram, Hitchadshut; E.P. Sofer, Seyfer di Sheyne Fargangenheit ein Mamarouch.[3] My personal observation seems to suggest that something is wrong here. The years seem to suggest a generation is missing between T4 and T5. Also, where Michal sister's (Bluma's) tree is located under Rabbi Mordechai, another son of the Taz (as some charts suggest), she does not have a sister Michal in those charts?? Also Chaya married Rabbi David Kopel here BUT under Bluma's chart she is married to Rabbi Jacob Kopel.[4] One chart on Geni.com has a Rabbi Avraham HaLevi Segal d.1713 as the father of T5.1 Rabbi Michal. This slightly fills in the missing years but if the name is correct, it appears that Rabbi Avraham is the grandfather and not the father of Rabbi Michal who was b.1750.
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com>
To: roys18@aol.com
Sent: Fri, May 1, 2020 4:43 am
Subject: Re: [ravsig] The Rabbi of Wolbrom's Daughter
Oh very good, your chart is accurate. I just wanted to point out that based on the years you have for T.32 Rabbi David Segal / Stern 1690 - 1760 and T4.2 Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Segal Stern 1767-1803 it is clear that there is a generation missing because otherwise you have Tzvi Hirsch born 7 years after his father died. As you mentioned in footnote 3, I found that there should be an extra generation between the two, as it seems from the attached document that Tzvi Hirsch is the son of Avraham HaLevi Stern who was the son of David Stern.
Also, just to correct something in footnote 5, Rav Reuven Chaim Klein author of Shenos Chaim did not die near Munaktch, rather he died in Vienna where is buried (as you yourself wrote). Also Avedkaf is a typo, it should said Davidkoff or something like that.
I (T12.1), by the way, have 3 sons and 1 daughter by now.
Do you use Geni.com at all? All of this information plus more is on Geni, I can send you links if need be...
Zei Gezunt & Kol Tuv,Reuven Chaim KleinBeitar Illit, Israel
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:50 PM <roys18@aol.com> wrote:What problem were we working on? Was it...."Charna that married Binyamin Eliezer was not the father of the Shenos Chaim, but was a son of his. That son was the one who lived in Svalyava, not the father. AFAIK, the father lived in Krakow."
Possibly..Are we mixing up several people in this question?Check out chart below......T7.1 was Rabbi Reuven Chaim Klein the son of T6.1 {female} Segal who married Rabbi Binyamin Eliezer Unger Auerbach.But T7.1 Rabbi Reuven Chaim Klein also had a son T8.4C Benyamin Eliezer Klein 1850 - 10 August 1917 (22 Av 5677) married C) Charna Kallush from Rafada
So 2 Binyamin Eliezers.1) T8.4C Benyamin Eliezer Klein was the son of Reuven Klein as stated in above questionBUT2) you want to know about Charna that married T7.1 Rabbi Reuven Chaim Klein, Shenos ChaimMaybe this Charna by mistake was stated as wife of T7.1 Rabbi Reuven Chaim Klein, Shenos ChaimBUT is actually the known Charna who was the 3rd wife of T8.4C Benyamin Eliezer Klein 1850 - 10 August 1917 (22 Av 5677) who married C) Charna Kallush from Rafada
Doesn't actually confirm anything but does it give you another question??Take careStay safeRoy Schmukler
P.S. The latest info of your connection is below
Chapter 5B – Descendants of TaZ' (1586 – 1667) son - T2.6 Rabbi Shmuel's (1645 - 1715) son –T3.2 R. David (1690 - 1760)
T3.2 Rabbi David Segal / Stern 1690 - 1760T4.2 Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Segal Stern 1767-1803 (Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Lichtig HaLevi Stern) (called Reb Hershele Litzas) ABD Ambrova near Trani, which is where he is buried[1] [2] [3]. Rabbi Tzvi married Leitza, a descendent of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe 1530 Prague – 26 February 1612 Poznzn (the Ba'al Halevushim) son of Avraham son of Yosef JaffeT5.1 Rabbi Yaakov Segal Litzas (Lebenheim) 1780-1818, ABD Wohlbrum, Polin, Rosh ABD Krakow[4]T6.1 {female} Segal married Rabbi Binyamin Eliezer Unger Auerbach[5] 1826 Cracow – 1873 Davidkof. Lived in SvalyavaT7.1 Rabbi Reuven Chaim Klein[6], Shenos Chaim[7] 1831 Mukacheve – 21 January 1873 Vienna (22 Tevet 5633) ABD Avedkaf, married Miriam Greenberger daughter of Tzvi Dov Greenberger (She had a brother Moshe Greenberger who married Frimeth Roth d.1904 {issue were Yitzchak, Zev, Tzvi Dov and Mala} and had a sister Zissel who married Naftoli Simcha Ackerman {issue were Yehuda Leibish, Chay and one more child}). Rabbi Reuven Chaim Klein was the Chief Rabbi of Nove Davydkovo (Uj-Dávidháza), Ukraine. He also authored the work "Shenos Chaim" in 1871 Lemberg, a commentary to Rabbeinu Yerucham.T8.4C Benyamin Eliezer Klein 1850 - 10 August 1917 (22 Av 5677) married C) Charna Kallush from RafadaT9.3 Mordechai Klein d.1916 married Chaya Zlata Friedman (her second marriage was to Shlomo Mermelstein) 1885 – 1934 daughter of Eliezer Friedman. Chaya Zlata was also a descendant of the Noam Elimelech through her mother Devorah Eckstein.T10.2 Randolph "Reuven Chaim" Klein 13 October 1912 -10 July 1968 (14 Tammuz 5728) married Sprintza Shoshana Kuttner d. 9 Iyyar 5777T11.1 "Michael" Mordechai Meir Klein married "Edith" Bracha Messinger daughter of David son of Baruch son of David Messinger (and Chana Zaidler) of Galanta Hungary.T12.1 Reuven Chaim Klein[8] of Los Angeles b. 4 September 1987 married …… Issue two sonsT12.2 Pinchus Ezriel KleinT12.3 Yerucham Shimon Klein
[1] See Sefer Klilas Yofi page 131.[8] Founder of www.Kleinfamilygenealogy.blogspot and one of the major sources of this branch[2] Information for this branch was taken from Klein Family Genealogical Website, from an email written by Rabbi Tzvi Steinberg, Kahal Zera Avraham, Denver Colorado USA and also from www.geni.com[3] Reuven Chaim Klein states that in Otzar HaChochma there is an additional generation and Tzvi Hirsch is the son of Rabbi Avrohom HaLevi Stern son of Rabbi David Stern son of Rabbi Shmuel Son of the TaZ[4] Mentioned in Klilas Yofi (p.60) and is also mentioned by the Chasam Sofer in Teshuos Chasam Sofer Chadashos, Yoreh Deah Siman 17.[5] From an email 26 March 2004 written by Leslie Reich on www.Kleinfamilygenealogy.blogspot: "According to Chachmei Hungaria (by YY Cohen- Jerusalem 1997 p.356) R' Reuven Chaim son of Binyomin Eliezer was born in 1826 and died in Davidkof (spelling?) near Muncasz in 1873. His family name had originally been Ungar or Auerbach but orphaned at an early age, adopted a new name. Curiously, Freedberg's bibliographical dictionary has yet another surname for him. (I suspect a copying error)."[6] According to Chachmei Hungaria (by YY Cohen- Jeruslem 1997 p356), his name was originally Ungar or Auerbach but being orphaned at an early age, adopted a new name[7] Also a descendent of the Rema
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com>
To: roys18@aol.com
Sent: Thu, Apr 30, 2020 8:00 am
Subject: Re: [ravsig] The Rabbi of Wolbrom's Daughter
Did we ever get down to the bottom of this?
Zei Gezunt & Kol Tuv,Reuven Chaim KleinBeitar Illit, Israel
On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 8:19 AM RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:lol
Gmar Chasimah Tovah,Reuven Chaim KleinBeitar Illit, Israel
On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 6:41 AM <roys18@aol.com> wrote:I was 41 yrs old - more than 2 1/2 times your age.Now I am 65 - just over twice your age.If we talk much longer, you will pass meLOL
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com>
To: roys18 <roys18@aol.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 3, 2019 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [ravsig] The Rabbi of Wolbrom's Daughter
...and I was only 16 years old at the time!
Gmar Chasimah Tovah,Reuven Chaim KleinBeitar Illit, Israel
On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 5:54 AM <roys18@aol.com> wrote:in your defense, it was 15 Yom Kippurs ago.Have an easy and meaniful fast.Gmar TovRoy Schmukler
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com>
To: roys18 <roys18@aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2019 2:10 pm
Subject: Re: [ravsig] The Rabbi of Wolbrom's Daughter
Interesting, looks like I missed that point in his email. I will try to contact Mr. Reich for clarification. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
Gmar Chasimah Tovah,Reuven Chaim KleinBeitar Illit, Israel
On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 7:17 AM <roys18@aol.com> wrote:That note about a different surname for the Shenos Chaim's father in my research actually comes from an email sent to you in 2004Here is a copy of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: LR
To: rachack@futurecities.com
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 4:35 AM
Subject: Shenos Chayim
Subject: Shenos Chayim
From: Leslie Reich
A query to this site reads as follows: -
***********."Hi, my name is Reuven Chaim Klein. I am a descendant of
***********Reuven Chaim Klein who wrote the sefer Shenos Chayim (which is
**********a commentary on the Rebbenu Yerucham). He lived in the city of
***********Munkatch. I have a copy of his sefer. In it, where describing
**********himself, it says he is of the offspring of the TaZ and the ReMa.
**********I was wondering if you can help me get more information."
......................................................................
I would like to help Mr Klein, but let me grouch and grouse (I think the
latter is a Kosher bird) a little first.
Our interlocuter says he want more information but does not let us now that
what he has got. Is he asking for leads for the connection between the
Shenos Chaim and the Taz & Remo? Which edition does he possess (see later)?
Where and when was the sefer published? If he has no further information it
would be better to state so clearly.
I must confess that I ignore many posts to this forum because the the asker
has not made all this sort of stuff clear.
Having got that off my chest; a brief note about Mr Klein's namesake
ancestor. According to Chachmei Hungaria (by YY Cohen- Jeruslem 1997 p356)
R' Reuven Chaim son of Binyomin Eliezer was born in Cracow in 1826 and died
in Davidkof (spelling?) near Muncasz in 1873. His family name had originally
been Ungar or Auerbach but being orphaned at an early age, adopted a new
name. Curiously, Freedberg's bibliographical dictionary has yet another
surname for him. (I suspect a copying error.)
As to the work Shenos Chaim, which Mr K correctly describes as a commentary
on Rabbenu Yerucham, this was originally published in Lemberg (today Lviv)
in 1871. If this is the edition seen, may I suggest he gets hold of a later
edition published in Jerusalem in 1985. This includes a preface by a
knowledgable contemporary Talmid Chacham, R' Moshe Zishe Kunstlicher. There
might be more information there.
Incidentally, the Rabbenu Yerucham referred to is a 14th Centyry Gadol, R'
Yerucham ben Meshulam, a pupil of the Rosh, who went into exile from
Provence to Spain. In contradistinction to many Gedolim who are commonly
named by their seforim - e.g. Chafetz Chaim, Chazon Ish - , when talmudists
say Rabbenu Yerucham, they ususally do not mean the person, but his two part
halachic sefer, Odom Vechavoh & Mayshorim.
There is a most curious story told about this last opus. The Chida (18th
Cent) in his Shem Hagdolim states that there exists a belief or tradition
that anybody who publishes a commentary on Rabbenu Yerucham is destined for
an early grave. It may be noted that the author of the Shenos Chaim died
aged 47 !
I hope the above is of general interest without being unconnected with
genealogy.
Leslie Reich
-------- 3/26/2004 11:14:52 PM
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com>
To: roys18 <roys18@aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 25, 2019 3:07 pm
Subject: Re: [ravsig] The Rabbi of Wolbrom's Daughter
I am sending you as an attachment the most up-to-date version of my research. You will see there that the Charna that married Binyamin Eliezer was not the father of the Shenos Chaim, but was a son of his. That son was the one who lived in Svalyava, not the father. AFAIK, the father lived in Krakow.Also, could you give me more information about your comment in fn. 5 about Freedberg having a different surname for the Shenos Chaim's father?Also, the years you wrote don't make sense: If Binyamin Eliezer was born in 1826, then his son RCK could not have been born in 1931. And also I don't see reason to think they both died in 1873, although that was the year RCK died.
Kesiva V'Chasimah Tovah,Reuven Chaim KleinBeitar Illit, Israel
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