I spoke to him and he didn't really have anything to add but referred me to somebody else who also didn't have anything to add.
If those new Kuttner relatives are interested in being in contact, I'd love to get in touch with them.
Hi Reuven,
Hope things are well with you! I noticed on your site you had a conversation with Mordechai Farid regarding the Kuttners. Did you learn anything new from him?
I haven't found anything beyond what you already know regarding the Simon and Sandor relation. I have learned that JewishGen's census database doesn't contain all of the Jewish families in their "completed" regions and have found several families I've been researching through manual searches. In time I hope that means I'll find something new regarding Simon or Sandor.
I'm not sure if you recall, but I mentioned before that Josef/Yosef Kutner had a wife before Lotti Wolf, Netti Friedman. I recently found several families in New York that are descendants of their first son Leo/Leopold. I already contacted one of them on Ancestry who would be your half-3rd cousin. They don't seem to know much about the Kuttner family history, but I'll be happy to provide them your contact information if you're interested in making contact.
-Raymond
That's cool, I'm also from California. My wife and I moved to Israel right after we got married in 2011. Where in California are you located?
You did indeed mention Gavi before, but I think you used his other name or something like that. Or I just forgot.
I mentioned Gavi before several times. I don't have my research available currently, but he's your cousin about the same distance as you and Akiva. He's been researching his ancestors for many years.
Gabor Farkas / Gavriel Zeevi
I'm in California. I've been researching my tree since 2000 when my maternal grandmother had to give it up. The Kuttner branch had been a roadblock for many years because I ran into source data conflicts. I only knew my grand parents on my father's side until last year when I located a Kuttner DNA match that explained the issue. My grandfather stole his brother's identity to move to America to avoid military service. Once that roadblock was knocked down I started researching the Kuttners. It's been connecting all the small Kuttner research trees to the early Kutna tree ever since.
I prefer to do my own research so I have source data attached to the individual. The two branches that I merged on Geni are frustrating because up until recently there was no source data attached. I despise Geni's source data system, so I'm not surprised others aren't adding their sources. If you noticed, Akiva recently added a Benjamin to the Kutna tree with no source data. I trust Akiva's judgement, but I'm clueless to who that Benjamin is because of that. If you hire a professional genealogist they'll research through records rather than trust family histories.
Kuttner is a fairly rare name. In my experience every Kuttner in a community ends up related. I also strongly suspect nearly every Jewish Kuttner in Hungary and the surrounding area are related. Most of my research trees end with a Kuttner that was born or living near Tata. Figuring out how they connect when records were mostly nonexistent is the challenge. DNA is the best tool for that, but nearly everybody I've been in contact with is resistant.
Very nice. I really do appreciate your hard work on this and uncovering all sorts of information. Just wondering, what's your story? Where do you live and how did you get involved in this project? I've been an amateur genealogist since 2004 when I was in high school, and I've so far collected lots of information on my many different branches of my family, more on my father's father's side of the family than my father's mother's side of the family. Until now, all my information came directly from people who know or from documents, but not from educated speculation, so that's part of why I'm resisting your proposal, even though I know it makes sense and is probably correct.
You wrote that "simply having a rare enough name and living in the same town is enough for some people to connect trees," but I somehow feel that the bar should be higher than that. And I don't think that we're dealing with names that are that rare, but I could be totally wrong. Let's chalk it up to epistemological differences. But you've definitely done some great work here, and I look forward to hearing more from you.
Anyways, I'd say we should just leave things the way they are already and not try disconnecting, and hopefully over the course of the next while, stronger evidence will come up. In my own personal records, I'll bring whatever you and Gavi came up with, but will add a footnote noting that we aren't 100% sure.
I don't think you mentioned Gavi to me before, can you please tell me how I can get in contact with him?
I respect your hesitation. The documentation I've already sent you and had already attached to your Geni tree is more than most researchers need to connect trees. Simply having a rare enough name and living in the same town is enough for some people to connect trees.
Alexander's second marriage record has his birth town and parents names listed. His birth date doesn't conflict with other known siblings.
I'm not the only one researching your tree. Multiple others have been for years. I've known of your tree for nearly a year and began the process of merging the trees after failing to find more DNA matches to triangulate a common relative. Your cousin Gavi that I have mentioned before is the one that located the record linking Alexander to Simon.
I can't currently access the records but I believe Josef's second marriage stated he was a widower. Can't promise it did but marrying the year after his first wife passed away isn't unusual.
The article about Simon is somebody researching his ancestors similar to how we're doing it. I go through thousands of images looking for Kuttners to learn how they connect. Most people don't have that time. I have cousins that have promised to visit the cemeteries to locate Kuttner headstones, but so far they've been unable.
I'm unable to remove the Simon - Alexander connection because Geni requires a paid membership for breaking relationships. A curator will have to do it for you. Me and Gavi believe the connection is accurate and our private trees will reflect that. FamilySearch for the time being will remain connected until I have more time to look at other resources.
Let me just summarize all the different issues here and let's see what we can work out:
- Until you came along, all I knew was that my great-great-grandfather Miksa/Meir KUTTNER (who died in the Holocaust) was the principal in the Orthodox elementary school in Bonyhad (Geni | FamilySearch) and his father's name was Joszef/Yosef. I also knew that he had a sister named Vali. The only other fact I have to work with is that the Yizkor book (here) for mentions that his older cousin who was also named Miksa Kuttner was the principal and the teacher of Tab, Somogy County and that both Miksa Kuttners studied at the teacher's training school in Papa.
- You found through the Mormon records that Josef Kuttner who was the father of Miksa, Ede, Sandor and Valerie Kuttner was also the son of one Sandor/Alexander Kuttner. I looked at those records and it seems to line up. Although, I never heard anything before about him having an earlier wife before Lotte (who I think was called Shaindel, but I could be wrong) with a bunch of kids.
- You wanted to take this a step further and identify Sandor Kuttner who was the father of Josef Kuttner with another Sandor Kuttner that you found who is listed as a son of Rabbi Shimon/Simon Kuttner of Szerdahely, who was a son of Rabbi Yosef Kuttner. I'm skeptical of this assertion because I don't see any proof of it, but I'm open to accepting it if we can get some more data.
- I never heard that my KUTTNER family descends from any famous rabbis, but then again it's possible that they just never told me, or my grandmother and her sisters who survived the war didn't realize this or didn't think it was important.
- Just looking at the firstnames, your assertion sort of makes sense because if Miksa had a brother named Sandor, I can hear that that brother was named after his grandfather. And if Miksa's father was named Yosef, it also makes sense that his grandfather would be named Yosef. And also the name Shimon is used in the family (Leslie Barany's Hebrew name was Shimon). But this isn't proof or a tradition, it's just an intuition.
- On the other hand, I found an essay in עלי זכרון (vol. 16) about Rabbi Shimon/Simon Kuttner that lists his children, but does not mention that he had a child named or Sandor/Alexander. Perhaps the author of that essay simply didn't know or didn't realize, but to me this makes your thesis sort of suspect, but doesn't disprove.
I think this summarizes the issue until now. Did I get this right? Do you have anything more to add to correct to this record?
It seems the further I get into the article the more ridiculous Google's translation becomes. I will need to find somebody with the time to translate this article more accurately. I'm able to decipher who some of these people are based on their surnames, but others seem new to me and don't seem to exist in other family trees that I'm aware of. Rabbi Gershon Kutner in particular.
Akiva expressed doubts previously and you don't seem convinced of the connection. I'll disconnect Alexander from Simon on Geni until either new DNA samples within the Simon branch can confirm the connection or another record hidden somewhere can back up the parentage.
Thanks for the article! I will have to translate the second half when I get home. From what I've seen so far they're gathering their information from the 1848 Census, grave markers, and some letters. Alexander had already moved out of his father's home and started a family when the 1848 Census was recorded. I have been unable to locate images of the 1848 Census for that region, but JewishGen managed to transcribe them at some point. I believe it was mentioned in the article the required age for the Census was 16 years old to be recorded, which explains excluding his daughters. I haven't verified if that's accurate yet, but typically these censuses were done for military recruitment and taxes, so it sounds likely.
Sandor's son Joseph was born in Csicsó, Komárom, Hungary on 1851. He had at least two other children born earlier with unknown birth locations, but I'm assuming it'll be the same location as Joseph. This would explain not being in Simon's household during the census taking. Sandor also was actively performing or participating in circumcisions until available records ended online. I haven't been able to locate his death records to see if they hint to his parentage. Most of the records are on microfilm requiring me to go to the main Mormon church or wait until they're scanned.
I would never give a 100% guarantee, but I find it unlikely there's another Simon Kutner and Lena Lovi/Magdolna Löwinger in Duna Szerdahely at the time Alexander's records suggest.
I found the attached article about Rabbi Shimon Kuttner, but it does not mentio that he has a son named Alexander/Sandor. Any insights?
