איש בשורות אנכי, והנני מבשר טוב שיצא לאור חדש על ציון הספר החשוב "מטה ראובן" להר"ר ראובן חיים קליין זצ"ל הי"ד אב"ד סנינא (נכד לאא"ז בעל השנות חיים זצ"ל) עם תוספות שלא נדפסו במהדורות הקודמות. אפשר להשיג את הספר אצלהרב גרינשטיין בירושלים 053-416-2852 (שהוא אחי התורם הגדול ר' ארי גרישטיין שיזם את המהדורה החדשה).אפשר לפרסם לשאר בני המשפחה...כל טוב,ראובן חיים קלייןביתר עילית
Unfortunately not.Thank You,Yoel Steuer347-533-2259On Sat, Nov 16, 2024 at 11:04 AM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:Did anything come of this? I'd love to know more information...On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 4:33 PM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:'Shkoiyach!Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 4:22 PM yoelsteuer <yoelsteuer@gmail.com> wrote:I will ask IYH
On Wednesday, Feb 14, 2024, 9:16 AM, wrote:
> Can you help put me in touch with the right people to find out more about this? Shalom & Kol Tuv, Reuven Chaim Klein Beitar Illit, Israel Author of: *God versus Gods *& *Lashon HaKodesh * ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | AmazonThank You,Yoel Steuer347-533-2259
Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
From : Avraham Lapa, (researcher code 440761) avraham997@gmail.com To : Reuven Chaim Klein, (researcher code 106665) Subject : The JewishGen Family Finder: hi
peace
Do you have lists or details about the city Jelka [Slov], Jóka [Hun] , have you visited there, or do you know someone who has details about the cemetery and the records there, I had grandparents who lived there, and I would be very happy to receive some details, I would appreciate it if you could contact me by email avrahamroots@gmail.com
My grandfather's name is Stadler Drucker Zommer . I had other grandfathers, but that's for sure
JewishGen | 36 Battery Place | New York, NY 10280 | www.JewishGen.org
Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
Sorry, I probably should have clarified that section better. Sandor Berényi is the grandson of Simon Kuttner through his daughter Magdolna and her husband Jakab Berenyi. I was trying to express that sometimes our ancestors randomly make it easy for us to figure out how they're related.There's a clip of the article in the memories section of his page.On Mon, Apr 29, 2024, 11:57 AM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:Very interesting.Sandor Berenyi even wrote a letter to a magazine stating Rabbi Jozsef Kutna/Kuttner is his great grandfather. I haven't found anything that obvious within the Sandor branch yet.How can I get a copy of this magazine article? Why did you call him Sandor Berenyi and not Sandor Kuttner? Did you mean to write grandfather not great-grandfather?Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Mon, Apr 29, 2024 at 1:35 AM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:In regards to the Simon and Sandor connection, it was your close cousin Gavi that discovered the parents of Sandor. I was the one that mentioned there was only one couple in Dunaszerdahely at the time with those names. He agreed, which is why we connected/merged the trees. Gavi and his son are also DNA matches to me, which helps to reinforce the connection.I've located other DNA matches for most of Simon's other children's descendants. Sandor Berenyi even wrote a letter to a magazine stating Rabbi Jozsef Kutna/Kuttner is his great grandfather. I haven't found anything that obvious within the Sandor branch yet.I spoke with Gili Itzhak, descendant of Valerie (daughter of Yosef and Lotti Wolf), but her family didn't know anything beyond Valerie and she wasn't aware of anybody with DNA online.Currently, the best chance of proof you want would be the Gyor County government. Last time I tried getting documents from the Hungarian government they required proof of being a descendant. They should have Sandor's death records or his burial location. He died after 1895, which is when Hungary started requiring parentage on the civil registration forms. His headstone may include his parentage as well, but nothing exists online from what I've seen.I have found mention of male Kuttners in the new Leo branch. That opens the possibility of doing a Y-DNA test, which should prove the lineage. None of them seem to be on any heritage site, so that would require some awkward emails. My luck at convincing people to take a DNA test outside of my close cousin circle has been dismal.On Sun, Apr 28, 2024 at 4:13 AM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:Very interesting! I'm always interested in all of this, it's just that I have very little time to engage in my hobbies and interests. I've been working on genealogy stuff very slowly for about 20 years already...IIRC, in one of my previous emails I wrote that finding out the genealogy of Miksa Kuttner of Tab who was my great-grandfather's first cousin might be a good way of testing your theory as to the parentage of Alexander (Sandor) Kuttner, as the two Miksa Kuttners are his grandsons. I wanted to see if anyone researching Miksa Kuttner of Tab had independently make a link between his grandfather and Simon (Shimon) Kuttner as you had suggested, but I don't see that here yet.Thanks for the links, this should help me in this line of inquiry when I have the time to work on it!Gut Moyed,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Sun, Apr 28, 2024 at 12:25 PM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:Not sure if you're still investigating the Miksa Kutner teacher/principal of Tab. Miksa is Akiva Epstein's great grandfather Viktor's brother Miksa Mikhael Kuttner. I was researching another Miksa Kuttner that was a teacher in Budapest last week and constantly ran into records for all three of the Miksa Kuttner teachers. I could search through again if there's anything specific you wanted to know about Miksa of Tab.This is the Miksa of Tab:This is the highly likely but currently unrelated Miksa of Budapest:The included photo is the engagement announcement for Miksa's daughter Klara. It states Miksa is the school igazgato-tanito / administrator(principal)/teacher. In his marriage record it also states tanito in Tab.
Sandor Berenyi even wrote a letter to a magazine stating Rabbi Jozsef Kutna/Kuttner is his great grandfather. I haven't found anything that obvious within the Sandor branch yet.
Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
In regards to the Simon and Sandor connection, it was your close cousin Gavi that discovered the parents of Sandor. I was the one that mentioned there was only one couple in Dunaszerdahely at the time with those names. He agreed, which is why we connected/merged the trees. Gavi and his son are also DNA matches to me, which helps to reinforce the connection.I've located other DNA matches for most of Simon's other children's descendants. Sandor Berenyi even wrote a letter to a magazine stating Rabbi Jozsef Kutna/Kuttner is his great grandfather. I haven't found anything that obvious within the Sandor branch yet.I spoke with Gili Itzhak, descendant of Valerie (daughter of Yosef and Lotti Wolf), but her family didn't know anything beyond Valerie and she wasn't aware of anybody with DNA online.Currently, the best chance of proof you want would be the Gyor County government. Last time I tried getting documents from the Hungarian government they required proof of being a descendant. They should have Sandor's death records or his burial location. He died after 1895, which is when Hungary started requiring parentage on the civil registration forms. His headstone may include his parentage as well, but nothing exists online from what I've seen.I have found mention of male Kuttners in the new Leo branch. That opens the possibility of doing a Y-DNA test, which should prove the lineage. None of them seem to be on any heritage site, so that would require some awkward emails. My luck at convincing people to take a DNA test outside of my close cousin circle has been dismal.On Sun, Apr 28, 2024 at 4:13 AM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:Very interesting! I'm always interested in all of this, it's just that I have very little time to engage in my hobbies and interests. I've been working on genealogy stuff very slowly for about 20 years already...IIRC, in one of my previous emails I wrote that finding out the genealogy of Miksa Kuttner of Tab who was my great-grandfather's first cousin might be a good way of testing your theory as to the parentage of Alexander (Sandor) Kuttner, as the two Miksa Kuttners are his grandsons. I wanted to see if anyone researching Miksa Kuttner of Tab had independently make a link between his grandfather and Simon (Shimon) Kuttner as you had suggested, but I don't see that here yet.Thanks for the links, this should help me in this line of inquiry when I have the time to work on it!Gut Moyed,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Sun, Apr 28, 2024 at 12:25 PM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:Not sure if you're still investigating the Miksa Kutner teacher/principal of Tab. Miksa is Akiva Epstein's great grandfather Viktor's brother Miksa Mikhael Kuttner. I was researching another Miksa Kuttner that was a teacher in Budapest last week and constantly ran into records for all three of the Miksa Kuttner teachers. I could search through again if there's anything specific you wanted to know about Miksa of Tab.This is the Miksa of Tab:This is the highly likely but currently unrelated Miksa of Budapest:The included photo is the engagement announcement for Miksa's daughter Klara. It states Miksa is the school igazgato-tanito / administrator(principal)/teacher. In his marriage record it also states tanito in Tab.
Gut Moyed,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
Not sure if you're still investigating the Miksa Kutner teacher/principal of Tab. Miksa is Akiva Epstein's great grandfather Viktor's brother Miksa Mikhael Kuttner. I was researching another Miksa Kuttner that was a teacher in Budapest last week and constantly ran into records for all three of the Miksa Kuttner teachers. I could search through again if there's anything specific you wanted to know about Miksa of Tab.This is the Miksa of Tab:This is the highly likely but currently unrelated Miksa of Budapest:The included photo is the engagement announcement for Miksa's daughter Klara. It states Miksa is the school igazgato-tanito / administrator(principal)/teacher. In his marriage record it also states tanito in Tab.
Gut Moyed,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
Hi Reuven,Hope things are well with you! I noticed on your site you had a conversation with Mordechai Farid regarding the Kuttners. Did you learn anything new from him?I haven't found anything beyond what you already know regarding the Simon and Sandor relation. I have learned that JewishGen's census database doesn't contain all of the Jewish families in their "completed" regions and have found several families I've been researching through manual searches. In time I hope that means I'll find something new regarding Simon or Sandor.I'm not sure if you recall, but I mentioned before that Josef/Yosef Kutner had a wife before Lotti Wolf, Netti Friedman. I recently found several families in New York that are descendants of their first son Leo/Leopold. I already contacted one of them on Ancestry who would be your half-3rd cousin. They don't seem to know much about the Kuttner family history, but I'll be happy to provide them your contact information if you're interested in making contact.-RaymondOn Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 11:54 AM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:That's cool, I'm also from California. My wife and I moved to Israel right after we got married in 2011. Where in California are you located?You did indeed mention Gavi before, but I think you used his other name or something like that. Or I just forgot.Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:54 PM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:I mentioned Gavi before several times. I don't have my research available currently, but he's your cousin about the same distance as you and Akiva. He's been researching his ancestors for many years.Gabor Farkas / Gavriel ZeeviI'm in California. I've been researching my tree since 2000 when my maternal grandmother had to give it up. The Kuttner branch had been a roadblock for many years because I ran into source data conflicts. I only knew my grand parents on my father's side until last year when I located a Kuttner DNA match that explained the issue. My grandfather stole his brother's identity to move to America to avoid military service. Once that roadblock was knocked down I started researching the Kuttners. It's been connecting all the small Kuttner research trees to the early Kutna tree ever since.I prefer to do my own research so I have source data attached to the individual. The two branches that I merged on Geni are frustrating because up until recently there was no source data attached. I despise Geni's source data system, so I'm not surprised others aren't adding their sources. If you noticed, Akiva recently added a Benjamin to the Kutna tree with no source data. I trust Akiva's judgement, but I'm clueless to who that Benjamin is because of that. If you hire a professional genealogist they'll research through records rather than trust family histories.Kuttner is a fairly rare name. In my experience every Kuttner in a community ends up related. I also strongly suspect nearly every Jewish Kuttner in Hungary and the surrounding area are related. Most of my research trees end with a Kuttner that was born or living near Tata. Figuring out how they connect when records were mostly nonexistent is the challenge. DNA is the best tool for that, but nearly everybody I've been in contact with is resistant.On Thu, Feb 1, 2024, 6:13 AM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:Very nice. I really do appreciate your hard work on this and uncovering all sorts of information. Just wondering, what's your story? Where do you live and how did you get involved in this project? I've been an amateur genealogist since 2004 when I was in high school, and I've so far collected lots of information on my many different branches of my family, more on my father's father's side of the family than my father's mother's side of the family. Until now, all my information came directly from people who know or from documents, but not from educated speculation, so that's part of why I'm resisting your proposal, even though I know it makes sense and is probably correct.You wrote that "simply having a rare enough name and living in the same town is enough for some people to connect trees," but I somehow feel that the bar should be higher than that. And I don't think that we're dealing with names that are that rare, but I could be totally wrong. Let's chalk it up to epistemological differences. But you've definitely done some great work here, and I look forward to hearing more from you.Anyways, I'd say we should just leave things the way they are already and not try disconnecting, and hopefully over the course of the next while, stronger evidence will come up. In my own personal records, I'll bring whatever you and Gavi came up with, but will add a footnote noting that we aren't 100% sure.I don't think you mentioned Gavi to me before, can you please tell me how I can get in contact with him?Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 12:55 AM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:I respect your hesitation. The documentation I've already sent you and had already attached to your Geni tree is more than most researchers need to connect trees. Simply having a rare enough name and living in the same town is enough for some people to connect trees.Alexander's second marriage record has his birth town and parents names listed. His birth date doesn't conflict with other known siblings.I'm not the only one researching your tree. Multiple others have been for years. I've known of your tree for nearly a year and began the process of merging the trees after failing to find more DNA matches to triangulate a common relative. Your cousin Gavi that I have mentioned before is the one that located the record linking Alexander to Simon.I can't currently access the records but I believe Josef's second marriage stated he was a widower. Can't promise it did but marrying the year after his first wife passed away isn't unusual.The article about Simon is somebody researching his ancestors similar to how we're doing it. I go through thousands of images looking for Kuttners to learn how they connect. Most people don't have that time. I have cousins that have promised to visit the cemeteries to locate Kuttner headstones, but so far they've been unable.I'm unable to remove the Simon - Alexander connection because Geni requires a paid membership for breaking relationships. A curator will have to do it for you. Me and Gavi believe the connection is accurate and our private trees will reflect that. FamilySearch for the time being will remain connected until I have more time to look at other resources.On Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 1:17 PM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:Let me just summarize all the different issues here and let's see what we can work out:
- Until you came along, all I knew was that my great-great-grandfather Miksa/Meir KUTTNER (who died in the Holocaust) was the principal in the Orthodox elementary school in Bonyhad (Geni | FamilySearch) and his father's name was Joszef/Yosef. I also knew that he had a sister named Vali. The only other fact I have to work with is that the Yizkor book (here) for mentions that his older cousin who was also named Miksa Kuttner was the principal and the teacher of Tab, Somogy County and that both Miksa Kuttners studied at the teacher's training school in Papa.
- You found through the Mormon records that Josef Kuttner who was the father of Miksa, Ede, Sandor and Valerie Kuttner was also the son of one Sandor/Alexander Kuttner. I looked at those records and it seems to line up. Although, I never heard anything before about him having an earlier wife before Lotte (who I think was called Shaindel, but I could be wrong) with a bunch of kids.
- You wanted to take this a step further and identify Sandor Kuttner who was the father of Josef Kuttner with another Sandor Kuttner that you found who is listed as a son of Rabbi Shimon/Simon Kuttner of Szerdahely, who was a son of Rabbi Yosef Kuttner. I'm skeptical of this assertion because I don't see any proof of it, but I'm open to accepting it if we can get some more data.
- I never heard that my KUTTNER family descends from any famous rabbis, but then again it's possible that they just never told me, or my grandmother and her sisters who survived the war didn't realize this or didn't think it was important.
- Just looking at the firstnames, your assertion sort of makes sense because if Miksa had a brother named Sandor, I can hear that that brother was named after his grandfather. And if Miksa's father was named Yosef, it also makes sense that his grandfather would be named Yosef. And also the name Shimon is used in the family (Leslie Barany's Hebrew name was Shimon). But this isn't proof or a tradition, it's just an intuition.
- On the other hand, I found an essay in עלי זכרון (vol. 16) about Rabbi Shimon/Simon Kuttner that lists his children, but does not mention that he had a child named or Sandor/Alexander. Perhaps the author of that essay simply didn't know or didn't realize, but to me this makes your thesis sort of suspect, but doesn't disprove.
I think this summarizes the issue until now. Did I get this right? Do you have anything more to add to correct to this record?Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 7:17 AM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:It seems the further I get into the article the more ridiculous Google's translation becomes. I will need to find somebody with the time to translate this article more accurately. I'm able to decipher who some of these people are based on their surnames, but others seem new to me and don't seem to exist in other family trees that I'm aware of. Rabbi Gershon Kutner in particular.Akiva expressed doubts previously and you don't seem convinced of the connection. I'll disconnect Alexander from Simon on Geni until either new DNA samples within the Simon branch can confirm the connection or another record hidden somewhere can back up the parentage.On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 4:43 PM Raymond Kuttner <raymond.kuttner@gmail.com> wrote:Thanks for the article! I will have to translate the second half when I get home. From what I've seen so far they're gathering their information from the 1848 Census, grave markers, and some letters. Alexander had already moved out of his father's home and started a family when the 1848 Census was recorded. I have been unable to locate images of the 1848 Census for that region, but JewishGen managed to transcribe them at some point. I believe it was mentioned in the article the required age for the Census was 16 years old to be recorded, which explains excluding his daughters. I haven't verified if that's accurate yet, but typically these censuses were done for military recruitment and taxes, so it sounds likely.Sandor's son Joseph was born in Csicsó, Komárom, Hungary on 1851. He had at least two other children born earlier with unknown birth locations, but I'm assuming it'll be the same location as Joseph. This would explain not being in Simon's household during the census taking. Sandor also was actively performing or participating in circumcisions until available records ended online. I haven't been able to locate his death records to see if they hint to his parentage. Most of the records are on microfilm requiring me to go to the main Mormon church or wait until they're scanned.I would never give a 100% guarantee, but I find it unlikely there's another Simon Kutner and Lena Lovi/Magdolna Löwinger in Duna Szerdahely at the time Alexander's records suggest.On Mon, Jan 29, 2024, 6:02 AM Reuven Chaim Klein <yeshivish@gmail.com> wrote:I found the attached article about Rabbi Shimon Kuttner, but it does not mentio that he has a son named Alexander/Sandor. Any insights?Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
Shalom & Kol Tuv,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Beitar Illit, Israel
Author of: God versus Gods & Lashon HaKodesh
ORCiD | LinkedIN | Google Scholar | Amazon
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