Re: Klein family

There are alot of Kleins from Hungary. It doesn't seem that our families are at all connected.

RCK

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:46 AM, Ron Kenan <ron@kenanent.com> wrote:

Hi Reuven,

I come from a paternal line of Kleins from Hungary.  My earliest known ancestor is Samuel Klein 1826-1881 born in Eger and probably his father Mojzes Klein born c. 1787 in Abrany.

Might they fit into your family genealogy?  Please feel free to request membership into my family tree http://www.myheritage.com/site-110858741/kenan.

All the best,

Ron Kenan

 

Fwd: QUESTIONS: historical information about Kuttner family

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Leslie Barany <lesbarany@aol.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS: historical information about Kuttner family
To: "Edith.gruen" <edith.gruen@gmail.com>
Cc: Klein Reuven Chaim <yeshivish@gmail.com>, BLAU LESLIE <lacisari11@verizon.net>

My mother just called.

She read over my purple corrections. Apparently, I still have errors in there.

I told her we can go over it and make more corrections next time I'm in Brooklyn.

Les

In the meanwhile, Edith, perhaps you can get the input from your Mom and Dad.

On Aug 7, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Edith.gruen wrote:

Wow! Thank G-d for Gyongyi and her memory and  Les and Reuven too

My mother Szori  gave me some of this info two days ago- I will check my notes- but not in this detail-
and I haven't had the opportunity to respond to you- but I will share this info w my Mom and Dad 

 Edith

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:56 PM, Leslie Barany <lesbarany@aol.com> wrote:

Reuven,

I had my mother read over what I wrote to you yesterday. Good thing I did because I got somethings wrong.

I'll insert in PURPLE below. I will also still have to review with her your follow-up questions from yesterday. 

I am curious, how do you organize all this information and how will it be accessible to us?

Les

Begin forwarded message:

From: Leslie Barany <lesbarany@aol.com>

Date: August 6, 2012 3:37:08 AM EDT

To: Klein Reuven Chaim <yeshivish@gmail.com>

Cc: BLAU LESLIE <lacisari11@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS: historical information about Kuttner family

Dear Reuven,

Got some information for you.

It's raw data from my mother. 

Les

QUESTIONS FROM REUVEN

On Aug 5, 2012, at 3:16 AM, RCK wrote:

As many of you know, one of my hobbies is genealogical research. Recently I have been trying to look into the KUTTNER side of my family, I found some interesting things and perhaps you can be of help if you have some information to contribute to my research.

1. First of all, in the JewishGen Yizkor Book Necrology Hungarian Database I found mention of the marriage of Miksa and Aranka WEISZ. Is this our grandfather?

NO. Miksa was not Weiss, not unless he took his wife's family name,

which we know he didn't. 

2. I know that Mayer is Miksa, but does it make sense to say that Deborah WEISZ is Aranka WEISZ?

NO, that does not follow in the tradition of Talmudic logic. 

3. From Sori neni's story I know that Devorah Kuttner was originally from Ujvidek

, do we have any other information about the WEISZ family from that side?

YES. My mother was very helpful. 

Weiss Mor (Moishe) was the father of Deborah Kuttner

Galandauer Regina (Rivka) was his wife.

Sori neni was a little mistaken. They were from Verbasz.

Actually, Moishe was a hazan, originally from a town near Bonyhad

(called Mórágy [Weiss Mor was born in Mórágy. Once he and Regina Galandauer were married, they moved to Verbasz] went to Verbasz where he married

Regina Galandauer. They had four children, Mariska, Mitzi, Deborah and Misi.

Misi married Kate and left Verbasz for Israel. Mariska married and moved to Pittsburgh in the USA. Not sure about Mitzi, you will have to follow up on that. 

It was only after Regina's husband, Moishe, passed away that she (I assume with her daughters) moved to Ujvidek. Verbasz was somewhere on the border with Yugoslavia. 

The border kept shifting and sometimes it was one country or the other. She said this is wrong. As she explained it, Hungary lost it in WWI and it became Yugoslavia. Then after Hitler it became Hungary again. I suggest both of us hitting the history books on this to understand it better.

4. Are there any relatives from that side of the family that might have more information?

Kate & Misi bacsi in Israel are gone. They had a daughter, Sonja, and a son, Freddy. Agi knows them, if you want to pursue that line of inquiry. Yossi has also met them when he was a child. I think they lived in Beit Zait just outside Jerusalem. They have kids and grand kids of their own. 

5. Also does anyone know what were the (Hebrew and Secular) names of the parents and grandparents of

Mayer and Devorah Kuttner?

This next answer is one is where I had it most confused.

I gave you Devorah Kuttner's parents' name above.

Miksa (Mayer) Kuttner's parents were Joseph and Lotte.

Mayer also had a brother, Sandor. His wife's name was Ilus.

Sandor and Ilus had two daughters, but parents and children all perished.

They had a son, Shaya, who didn't 'come back', and a daugher, Vali. 

Vali married Yossi Bilitzer and they live in Afula, Israel. 

Mayer and Sandor had a sister named Vali. Vali married Bilitzer Mor,

who was a cantor and a shochet. They lived in Eger. They had two sons,

Shaya and Jossi. Shaya perished in the Holocaust, Jossi lives in Afula, Israel.

My feeling is Jossi Bilitzer in Afula might be a good person to visit and may have 

more information for you. Agi knows them from a long time ago and could make 

the introduction. Also to Sonia and Freddy in Bet Zait. They've all met Yossi and your father, too.

On second thought, who am I kidding. She has no time for such things. Maybe Yossi?

Probably not. He is as practical in his priorities as is my sister.

No information is available on Miksa Mayer's grandparents. 

That's expecting too much, but I am sure you will find it.

6. Also, I found in the Yizkor Book for the town of Papa that it mentions a list of teachers that had something to do with the town of Papa, and in the list it says "MIKSA KUTTNER Senior was the principal and the teacher of Tab, Somogy County MIKSA KUTTNER Junior worked at the orthodox school of Bonyhád" (see here for the exact page). This seems to imply that Miksa Kuttner's father was also named Miksa Kuttner and was a teacher in the town of Tab. Is this indeed my great-great-grandfather?

Sorry, NO. The Yizkor Book of Papa is mistaken. They were not father and son but first cousins. They both went to teacher's school in Papa. 

7. Do we have any more information about him?

I gave it to you above. Your great-great-grandparents on the Kuttner side were

Joseph and Lotte Kuttner. 

8. Also, I haven't been able to figure out why this is mentioned in the Yizkor book for the town of Papa, what does this have to do with that town?

If you read the Papa Yizkor Book carefully, you will note that the city was famed for its school for teachers. They came from all over and upon graduation went to teaching positions all over.

 

9. Also, I found on the website for the US Holocaust Memorial Museum (click here) a picture of Jozsef Kuttner z"l donated to the Museum by Mr. and Mrs. Blau. In the description of the picture, it is mentioned that our common ancestor, Miksa (Mayer) Kuttner was born in Mosonszenpeter, Hungary. To the best of my recollection, this fact is not mentioned in Mr. Blau's, so I would like to first verify if this is true.

My mother say that is correct.

10. I cannot find anymore information about this town, perhaps it was known under a different name or the

name or spelling of the town is inaccurate?

The spelling is inacurate. The also misspelled my father's name. Americans are lousy spellers.

Try 'Moson Szent Peter' 

http://www.hungarianvillagefinder.com/HVFIndex2/35_MOSON.html

I also saw it referred to elsewhere as  'Mosonszentpéter' and as 'Moson-Szent-Péter '

 http://www.the-burgenland-bunch.org/V_Histories/Janossomorja.htm

My mother said the town was on the Austrian border and Lotte Kuttner spoke only German. Regina spoke only a little bit of Hungarian.

Maybe you know how to fix the information in the Leslie Blau entry of the US Holocaust Archive. And as I mentioned, it was a multiple entry, not just for Jozsef Kuttner, but also for his parents, brother and sister. I remember we sent all of their photos.

Thanks,

Reuven Chaim Klein

P.S. While checking UJVIDEK, I came upon this 1944 Serb on Hungarian horror story. 

Unless I'm missing something, it had nothing to do with Jews.

The barbarity of it is amazing. http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/cseres/cseres05.htm

I mentioned this to my mother. She said the Jews were butchered in Ujvidek. 

Suprisingly (or not) there is no mention of it on this website. The Szerbs there were good to the Jews and tried to save them. The Slovaks were the bad guys. She said Mariska and Mitzi were in a group taken to the shores of the Danube and were ready to be shot, when a last minute order to stop saved their lives. They went to Bonyhad right afterwards their horrific experience. Follow-up is needed here to find out if this was at the beginning of the war or after it, and to find out what happened to Mitzi?

By the way, Mariska Neni (who lived in Pittsburgh) wrote out her autobiography in 

long hand. We have a copy of it. It might be worthwhile for you to read it. The early years

may hold more of the information you are looking for. 

WEISZ Family information

I am sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but it is very hard to coordinate with relatives halfway across the world. I had my father's first cousin speak to his mother (my grandmother's sister) to get me more information about the family's history. Basically, Mor (Moishe) Weisz from Mórágy married Regina Galandauer and they moved to Vebasz. They had four children: Mariska (Mary Guggenheim from Pittsburg), Misi (who married Kate and lived in Israel), Mitzi, and Deborah. After Mor Weisz died, then the Weisz family moved to Ujvidek.  Deborah was my great-grandmother, her husband was Miksa (Mayer) Kuttner and they lived after their marriage in Bonyhad. I hope this clarifies the my family history.

RCK

Re: QUESTIONS: historical information about Kuttner family

Thank you so much for helping me get the information that I asked for. I sent an email to the curator of the US Holocaust Memorial Museum to inform him of the mistakes on the description of the pictures (there are five pictures, see below)

I have some follow-up questions about certain points which I still would like to clarify. If you can please help me get these answers as well. I will try to make the questions clearer like you did to my previous questions.

1. What I meant to ask before, even though it was unclear, was that I found a record of the marriage of Miksa KUTTNER to Aranka WEISZ so I was wondering if it is possible that maybe Aranka is another name for Deborah somehow (maybe one is a Jewish name and one is Hungarian like Mayer and Miksa)?

2. You mentioned that Mor WEISZ's wife was Regina GALANDAUER. Was she related to the GALANDAUER family from Bonyhad? If so, how?

3. You mentioned that the Miksa Kuttner who taught at Tab was a first cousin of our Miksa Kuttner. Do we know exactly how they were first cousins? I assume that it means that our Miksa Kuttner's father Joseph Kuttner was a brother to that Miksa Kuttner's father, do we know his name? Where they both from the town of Mosonszentpeter?

If there are any more pieces of information that Laci baci hasn't mentioned in his book that you feel are important to understanding our family's history, please tell me.

Here are the links to all the pictures in the set:

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162087

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162088

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162089

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162090

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162086

Thank you so much,

RC Klein

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Leslie Barany <lesbarany@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Reuven,

Got some information for you.

It's raw data from my mother. 

Les

QUESTIONS FROM REUVEN

On Aug 5, 2012, at 3:16 AM, RCK wrote:

As many of you know, one of my hobbies is genealogical research. Recently I have been trying to look into the KUTTNER side of my family, I found some interesting things and perhaps you can be of help if you have some information to contribute to my research.

1. First of all, in the JewishGen Yizkor Book Necrology Hungarian Database I found mention of the marriage of Miksa and Aranka WEISZ. Is this our grandfather?

NO. Miksa was not Weiss, not unless he took his wife's family name, which we know he didn't. He liked the sound of Kuttner and kept it.

2. I know that Mayer is Miksa, but does it make sense to say that Deborah WEISZ is Aranka WEISZ?

NO, that does not follow in the tradition of Talmudic logic. What are you smoking?

Same thing I am ;-?

3. From Sori neni's story I know that Devorah Kuttner was originally from Ujvidek

, do we have any other information about the WEISZ family from that side?

YES. My mother was very helpful. 

Weiss Mor (Moishe) was the father of Deborah Kuttner

Galandauer Regina (Rivka) was his wife.

Sori neni was a little mistaken. They were from Verbasz.

Actually, Moishe was a hazan, originally from a town near Bonyhad

(called Mórágy went to Verbasz where he married

Regina Galandauer. They had four children, Mariska, Mitzi, Deborah and Misi.

Misi married Kate and left Verbasz for Israel. Mariska married and moved to Pittsburgh in the USA. Not sure about Mitzi, you will have to follow up on that. 

It was only after Regina's husband, Moishe, passed away that she (I assume with her daughters) moved to Ujvidek. Verbasz was somewhere on the border with Yugoslavia. 

The border kept shifting and sometimes it was one country or the other.

4. Are there any relatives from that side of the family that might have more information?

Kate & Misi bacsi in Israel are gone. They had a daughter, Sonja, and a son, Freddy. Agi knows them, if you want to pursue that line of inquiry. Yossi has also met them when he was a child. I think they lived in Beit Zait just outside Jerusalem. They have kids and grand kids of their own. 

5. Also does anyone know what were the (Hebrew and Secular) names of the parents and grandparents of

Mayer and Devorah Kuttner?

I gave you Devorah Kuttner's parents' name above.

Miksa (Mayer) Kuttner's parents were Joseph and Lotte.

Mayer also had a brother, Sandor. His wife's name was Ilus.

They had a son, Shaya, who didn't 'come back', and a daugher, Vali. 

Vali married Yossi Bilitzer and they live in Afula, Israel.

No information is available on Miksa Mayer's grandparents. 

That's expecting too much, but I am sure you will find it.

6. Also, I found in the Yizkor Book for the town of Papa that it mentions a list of teachers that had something to do with the town of Papa, and in the list it says "MIKSA KUTTNER Senior was the principal and the teacher of Tab, Somogy County MIKSA KUTTNER Junior worked at the orthodox school of Bonyhád" (see here for the exact page). This seems to imply that Miksa Kuttner's father was also named Miksa Kuttner and was a teacher in the town of Tab. Is this indeed my great-great-grandfather?

Sorry, Grasshopper, NO. The Yizkor Book of Papa is mistaken. They were not father and son but first cousins. They both went to teacher's school in Papa. 

7. Do we have any more information about him?

I gave it to you above. Your great-great-grandparents on the Kuttner side were

Joseph and Lotte Kuttner. 

8. Also, I haven't been able to figure out why this is mentioned in the Yizkor book for the town of Papa, what does this have to do with that town?

If you read the Papa Yizkor Book carefully, you will note that the city was famed for its school for teachers. They came from all over and upon graduation went to teaching positions all over.

 

9. Also, I found on the website for the US Holocaust Memorial Museum (click here) a picture of Jozsef Kuttner z"l donated to the Museum by Mr. and Mrs. Blau. In the description of the picture, it is mentioned that our common ancestor, Miksa (Mayer) Kuttner was born in Mosonszenpeter, Hungary. To the best of my recollection, this fact is not mentioned in Mr. Blau's, so I would like to first verify if this is true.

My mother say that is correct.

10. I cannot find anymore information about this town, perhaps it was known under a different name or the

name or spelling of the town is inaccurate?

The spelling is inacurate. The also misspelled my father's name. Americans are lousy spellers.

Try 'Moson Szent Peter' 

http://www.hungarianvillagefinder.com/HVFIndex2/35_MOSON.html

I also saw it referred to elsewhere as  'Mosonszentpéter' and as 'Moson-Szent-Péter '

 http://www.the-burgenland-bunch.org/V_Histories/Janossomorja.htm

My mother said the town was on the Austrian border and Lotte Kuttner spoke only German.

Regina spoke only a little bit of Hungarian.

Maybe you know how to fix the information in the Leslie Blau entry of the US Holocaust Archive. And as I mentioned, it was a multiple entry, not just for Jozsef Kuttner, but also for his parents, brother and sister. I remember we sent all of their photos.

Thanks,

Reuven Chaim Klein

P.S. While checking UJVIDEK, I came upon this 1944 Serb on Hungarian horror story. 

Unless I'm missing something, it had nothing to do with Jews.

The barbarity of it is amazing. http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/cseres/cseres05.htm

http://www.dvhh.org/batschka/village/index.htm#V

Verbasz aka Vrbas  (German)

See: Neu-Werbaß / Neu-Werbass (German)

And if you are looking for a souvenir, there is this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HUNGARY-TOWN-CANCEL-1850-ISSUE-NEU-VERBASZ-/300382457826

Correction in picture descriptions

I was looking at some pictures on the USHMM website, it has been called to my attention that there are two typos in a description of the pictures. The first is the name of the town which is written as "Mosonszenpeter" in the description, this is a mistake and it should actually say "Mosonszentpeter". Also, in the description a name is written as "Erno Baranay", but this too is a typo and it should say "Erno Barany". 

These typos are found on the following pages:

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162087

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162088

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162089

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162090

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162086

Thank you,

Reuven Chaim Klein

(on behalf of Leslie and Sara Blau, Gyongyi Barany, and Leslie Barany)

Re: Mosonszentpeter

My comments are inserted between yours.

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Sandor Bacskai <eretzhagar@gmail.com> wrote:

Mr. R. Ch. Klein,

I don't really know anything about my great-grandfather Miska Kuttner's parents, but I did find on Friday this webpage which seems to imply that Miska Kuttner from Bonyhad was a son of Miska Kuttner for Tab.

I think, that is not sure they were father and son, but maybe grandfather and grandson.

The redactor of the Yizkor book certainly linked them together (perhaps because they had the same name), but to me I don't even know that doing so is at all justified. Miksa is a common name, so it could be possible that the two are completely unrelated. I heard from a survivor from Bonyhad (at this year's hazkara) that my great-grandfather although he was a teacher in Bonyhad, he was not originally from Bonyhad. I have yet to confirm this with anyone in my family. Also it makes sense that a father and son wouldn't have the same name because Ashkenazim just don't do that (especially because they seem to have both lived at the same time, so you cannot say her was named after his father).

I know on Miksa Kuttner in Tab from a 1927 directory, what listed the Shomre Shabos merchants and Jewish community leaders of some towns in Hungary.

In Tab, there was mentioned Mor Kuttner (the cashier of the Jewish Community), and Miksa Kuttner (the secretary of the Jewish Community).

Both Mor and Miksa were also listed in the 1937 and 1938 lists of Tomche Yeshivot movement (list of bal-batim people who paid for the yeshivas).

This moment, I don't have more info on this Miksa Kuttner.

Interesting, If you find anything, you have my email address. 

Regarding Bonyhad, the book Shem Hagedolim m' Eretz Hagar says a R' Yisroel Kuttner (Kuttna), who served as Dayan in Bonyhad, where he died in 1872.

I don't know his family tree.

I have this sefer, what page is it on? This interests me not because of a genealogical lead (as I already explained, I have reason to believe that the Kuttner family did not originate in Bonyhad, rather my great-grandfather moved there), but because I am interesting in learning about the rabbinic history of Bonyhad (as I discussed at my speech last year at the Bonyhad Hazkara 2011 and touched at this year's Hazkara).

Do you have any more information about the Miksa Kuttner from Tab? How would I be able to find out about this?

The pre-1895 Jewish records of Mosonszentpeter and the 1895-1944 civil records of Tab, probably could have important data on him and his family.

Does JewishGen have these records? How can I get a hold of them? According to this page, he Miksa Kuttner was born there on December 1, 1894.

- - - - - -

I think, we changed emails 7-8 years ago about Munkacs cemetery photos? You are a descendant of the Davidkovo Rav "Shenos Chaim, right?

Yes we did. I am impressed that you have such a memory! Your letter is archived in my webpage here  and is dated June 18 2004. That feels like so long ago... Do you happen to still have those pictures? I don't think I realized the significance of your find then. 

Regards,

Sandor

Thank you so much for you all of your help,

Reuven Chaim Klein 

On Aug 4, 2012, at 8:37 PM, RCK wrote:

Thank you for your help. 

I don't really know anything about my great-grandfather Miska Kuttner's parents, but I did find on Friday this webpage which seems to imply that Miska Kuttner from Bonyhad was a son of Miska Kuttner for Tab. Do you have any more information about the Miksa Kuttner from Tab? How would I be able to find out about this?

RCK

On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Sandor Bacskai <eretzhagar@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Reuven Chaim Klein,

Mosonszentpeter now is a part of town Janossomorja, located in former Moson County till 1950, and in present Gyor-Sopron-Moson County.

It's 5-6 kilometers close to border of Austria.

Regarding Miksa Kuttner, could he be same person who was a Jewish Community secretary in Tab?

Sincerely,

Sandor Bacskai genealogist

Budapest, Hungary

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Mosonszenpeter, Hungary
From: RCK <rachack@futurecities.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 04:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 3

I found on the website of the US Holocaust Memorial Museum that my great 
grandfather Miksa Kuttner was born in a town called Mosonszenpeter, Hungary. I 
Googled the name of the town, but I couldn't find anything about it. Does anyone 
know if there is another name for this town?

Here is the link where I found this information: 
http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1162086&search=&index=6

Thank You,
Reuven Chaim Klein
Genealogical Researcher

historical info about Kuttner family

As many of you know, one of my hobbies is genealogical research. Recently I have been trying to look into the KUTTNER side of my family, I found some interesting things and perhaps you can be of help if you have some information to contribute to my research. First of all, in the JewishGen Yizkor Book Necrology Hungarian Database I found mention of the marriage of Miksa and Aranka WEISZ. Is this our grandfather? I know that Mayer is Miksa, but does it make sense to say that Deborah WEISZ is Aranka WEISZ? From Sori neni's story I know that Devorah Kuttner was originally from Ujvidek, do we have any other information about the WEISZ family from that side? Are there any relatives from that side of the family that might have more information? Also does anyone know what were the (Hebrew and Secular) names of the parents and grandparents of Mayer and Devorah Kuttner?

Also, I found in the Yizkor Book for the town of Papa that it mentions a list of teachers that had something to do with the town of Papa, and in the list it says "MIKSA KUTTNER Senior was the principal and the teacher of Tab, Somogy County MIKSA KUTTNER Junior worked at the orthodox school of Bonyhád" (see here for the exact page). This seems to imply that Miksa Kuttner's father was also named Miksa Kuttner and was a teacher in the town of Tab. Is this indeed my great-great-grandfather? Do we have any more information about him? Also, I haven't been able to figure out why this is mentioned in the Yizkor book for the town of Papa, what does this have to do with that town? 

Also, I found on the website for the US Holocaust Memorial Museum (click here) a picture of Jozsef Kuttner z"l donated to the Museum by Mr. and Mrs. Blau. In the description of the picture, it is mentioned that our common ancestor, Miksa (Mayer) Kuttner was born in Mosonszenpeter, Hungary. To the best of my recollection, this fact is not mentioned in Mr. Blau's, so I would like to first verify if this is true. I cannot find anymore information about this town, perhaps it was known under a different name or the name or spelling of the town is inaccurate?

Thanks,

Reuven Chaim Klein